In this episode of Mostly Growth, Kyle Poyar and CJ Gustafson sit down with Des Traynor, Co-Founder of Intercom, to unpack how building, marketing, and scaling software has changed over the past decade—and what still matters. Des reflects on the early days of SaaS, why attention and distribution have become the hardest problems in modern growth, and how AI has intensified both competition and hype. The conversation dives into founder-led sales, why customer love and real product value beat narrative-driven marketing, and what weak retention metrics reveal about many AI-native startups. Des also shares Intercom’s thinking on outcome-based pricing, brand investment, and why reality ultimately “bats last” in software, offering a grounded perspective on what it takes to build durable companies in an increasingly noisy market.

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LINKS:

Mostly Metrics: https://www.mostlymetrics.com

CJ on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/cj-gustafson-13140948/

Growth Unhinged: https://www.growthunhinged.com/

Kyle on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kyle-poyar/

Slacker Stuff: https://www.slackerstuff.com/

Ben on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/slackerstuff/

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