Ever get told to “focus on outcomes, not outputs”... and then left with absolutely no clue what to do next?

You’re not alone. Too many product thought leaders drop this phrase like it’s gospel, but rarely explain how to apply it. It’s a slogan, not advice, and it leaves real product managers stuck.

This episode is the antidote. We break down what “outcomes over outputs” actually means, how to tell if your org is too focused on shipping, and what practical steps you can take to drive real results. We even play a game to help you build the muscle of spotting outcomes in the wild.

If you’ve ever rolled your eyes at another vague declaration from a product influencer, get ready to fight back. Expect practical advice, real talk, and a few sharp takes on how to translate theory into results that actually get you noticed.

For a conversation on how you can make outcomes work for you, pull up a chair on the porch.

Time Stamped Notes:

Introduction and Welcome Back Joe
[00:45] Joe returns – Joe Ghali rejoins the podcast after a brief hiatus and kicks off the episode with the theme of focusing on outcomes over outputs.

Understanding Outcomes vs. Outputs
[01:45] Defining the terms – A clear breakdown of what we mean by "outcomes" and "outputs," and why the difference matters.

Benefits of Focusing on Outcomes
[04:00] Customer-first mindset – How outcome thinking leads to better user retention and improved experience.
[06:30] Product Manager value – Outcomes help PMs level up by connecting their work to real impact and demonstrating strategic value.

What Is “Outcomes Over Outputs”?
[07:05] It’s a mindset – A principle, not a checklist.
[08:00] Draw the line – If you can connect what you do to business outcomes, you instantly become more valuable to the organization.

Game Time: Todd Tries to Stump Joe and Ryan
[09:40] Is that an outcome? – Todd tosses a curveball: “I want to increase my batting average.” The crew debates if it's an outcome or an output.
[10:40] Not all outcomes are equal – Outcomes are everywhere; it’s our job to find the right ones to influence.
[11:40] Prioritize outcomes, not features – A nuanced but critical shift in how product leaders think and operate.

Product Outcomes vs. Business Outcomes
[14:36] Know the difference – Ryan breaks it down: product outcomes = customer impact, business outcomes = company impact.
[15:42] Shared ownership – Everyone on the product team owns outcomes, not just the PM.

Signs You’re Too Output-Focused
[16:00] Champagne problems – If launch day is your high point, you're likely too output-focused.
[19:15] The reality check – When performance reviews are tied to deadlines, how do we shift toward outcomes anyway?

Ryan’s Outcome Maturity Model
[20:00] Outcome maturity – Ryan walks us through how organizations evolve in their outcome thinking.
[21:45] Moving forward – Tips for how teams can start becoming more outcome-focused.
[23:15] Vacation mode – Joe shares a relatable example of outcome-thinking… while planning a family vacation.

Outcome or Output? Game Show Edition
[25:50] Salesforce integration – Sales says we're losing deals. Why that doesn’t mean you need a Salesforce integration.
[27:00] Deadline drama – Leadership pushes for a Q3 launch. Ryan explains why that’s an output, not an outcome.
[28:31] Support ticket drop – Reducing tickets to improve customer experience? Joe makes the case for outcome.
[30:30] App store blues – Fixing reviews to save your rep. Ryan says hold up—it’s an output without deeper insight.

Getting Started with Outcomes
[34:30] Joe’s advice – Understand the “as-is” before you build the “to-be.” (Shoutout to Laura from Kimberly-Clark!)
[35:35] Todd’s advice – Start by mastering the art of asking “why.”

Key Takeaways and Closing Thoughts
[39:08] Ryan – Don’t be intimidated. Use your 1:1s to talk about outcomes instead of project status.
[39:40] Joe – Want to become more outcome-focused? Ask: “What are our customers' goals and pain points?”
[40:15] Todd – Don’t let outcomes become theoretical. The magic is in attaching them to your product, measuring them, and taking your time. That’s why so many OKRs fall short—don’t rush it.

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Everyone Says “Outcomes Over Outputs.” No One Tells You What It Means.

The Product Porch