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For over 4 years, Russia has been fighting its full scale war in Ukraine and despite all its efforts it’s not particularly successful at it. But for much longer than that, Russia has been fighting a second war in parallel, one that gets far less attention but which is arguably far, far more successful. It's the war for hearts and minds: in Europe, in Ukraine and across the Global South - and while it might seem abstract, it’s very much real and it’s bringing Russia very real benefits - often enabling it to win battles without needing to fight a single shot.

To understand how that war is being fought - and why is the West on the backfoot - I'm talking to Janis Sarts, the Director of NATO's Strategic Communications Centre of Excellence. This is the organisation that sits at the heart of NATO's efforts to understand and counter Russian information warfare, which makes Sarts one of the most informed people in the world on how this domain actually works.

We get into why Russia is so effective at this despite being outmatched in almost every other domain, why Western governments talk about the threat constantly but do so little to counter it, and what it would actually take to fight back - including the lessons from Ukraine, which has done something no Western country has managed: take the information fight directly to Russia.

NATO Information Warfare Chief: Russia's Plan to Defeat Europe Without Firing a Shot | Janis Sarts

Decoding Geopolitics Podcast with Dominik Presl