Steve Jobs was nearly bankrupt — down to his last $150 million, burning $50 million a year, with every product failing and every investor gone.

Award-winning journalist Geoffrey Cain, author of Steve Jobs in Exile: The Untold Story of NeXT and the Remaking of a Technology Visionary, joins Aidan McCullen to tell the story the official Jobs narrative leaves out: the dozen years between his firing from Apple in 1985 and his triumphant return. Drawing on unbroadcast NeXT footage, new interviews and internal documents, Cain reveals the failures, the revenge and the near-misses that forged the leader who saved Apple.

In this conversation, Geoffrey reveals:

Why Steve Jobs was three years from bankruptcy in the early 1990s
The "low-level employees" lie that made Apple sue its own co-founder
Why the lawsuit backfired and handed Jobs exactly what he wanted
How a Bill Gates talk about CD-ROMs accidentally named NeXT
Why revenge on John Sculley — not changing the world — drove the founding of NeXT
The "hero–shithead rollercoaster" every NeXT executive insisted Cain had to understand
The "deep shit list" Jobs ran the company on — and the mindset shift that replaced it
How George Lucas's divorce handed Jobs Pixar at a fire-sale price
Why Ross Perot bet $20 million on a company with no product
"Steve on a Stick" — the celebrity sales act that kept NeXT alive

Chapters:

00:00 Failures Before Fame

01:03 Sponsor Message

01:36 NeXT Years Overview

02:50 Meet Geoffrey Cain

06:46 Survivorship Bias Lens

08:59 Near Bankruptcy Stakes

11:50 Fired From Apple 1985

14:37 Summer In Exile

19:11 Rival Jean-Louis Gassée

22:22 Dan'l Lewin And Education

27:32 Revenge Fuels NeXT

30:52 Apple Sues Steve Jobs

34:37 Lawsuit Backfires

36:23 Naming NeXT

39:02 Betting Careers On Steve

42:08 Pixar Fire Sale Bet

45:28 Working With Steve

46:31 Hero Shithead Rollercoaster

49:11 NeXT Talent Hierarchy

53:14 Luxury Spending Spree

58:32 Ross Perot Big Check

01:02:04 Deep Shit List Management

01:08:28 Canon Optical Disk Gamble

01:13:38 Businessland Sales Fallout

01:17:22 Wrap Up And Sponsor

Find Geoffrey Cain at https://geoffreycain.net, on X at @Geoffrey_Cain and on LinkedIn (GCain).

This series is brought to you by Kyndryl, who run and reimagine the technology systems that drive advantage for the world's leading businesses. Learn more about Kyndryl and the Kyndryl Institute at https://www.kyndryl.com.

Subscribe to the Thursday Thought on Substack for a chance to win a copy of Steve Jobs in Exile, with thanks to Kyndryl: https://thethursdaythought.substack.com

About The Innovation Show: The Thinkers50-recognised podcast where square pegs find their place in a world of round holes. Aidan McCullen hosts world-class authors, scientists and practitioners on disruption, innovation, change, transformation, leadership, AI and the ideas shaping tomorrow.

About the Host: Aidan McCullen is the 2025 Thinkers50 Innovation Award recipient, keynote speaker on AI, disruption, innovation, and change, host of The Innovation Show, and author of Undisruptable: A Mindset of Permanent Reinvention (Wiley). Learn more at https://theinnovationshow.io/about-aidan-mccullen

Website: https://theinnovationshow.io

Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/ie/podcast/the-innovation-show/id1148455669

Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/63nFKf4bsSWo3W72gWtOsK?si=b62d9614237c4450

YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/c/theinnovationshow

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/aidanmccullen

Geoffrey Cain — Steve Jobs in Exile: NeXT, Failure, Revenge and the Remaking of a Visionary

The Innovation Show

Geoffrey Cain — Steve Jobs in Exile: NeXT, Failure, Revenge and the Remaking of a Visionary