With the release of Christopher Nolan's adaptation of the Odyssey, it seems like everyone's been talking about a 3,000-year-old epic again. But my guest thinks this ancient tale offers a framework for understanding our modern lives that you probably haven't heard before.

Patrick Deneen is a professor of political science and the author of American Odyssey. Today on the show, Patrick argues that Odysseus embodies a tension that has defined the human experience, and especially the American experience: we're both home-seeking and exploring, rooted and restless. We long to settle down somewhere, yet we're equally driven to push beyond the horizon in search of something new. Patrick shares how Alexis de Tocqueville made this observation about our country two centuries ago, how Odysseus navigates the temptation to become both more than human and less than human, and the surprising act Patrick thinks is the most heroic thing Odysseus does. We end our conversation with the idea that having a home can give us the confidence to explore, or as David Brooks put it, "All of life is a series of daring explorations from a secure base."

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0:00 Intro & sponsor plugs

0:41 Patrick Deneen's American Odyssey & Nolan's film

2:28 Nolan's changes to Odysseus's character

4:56 Dante's Odysseus in hell

7:33 Why Odyssey keeps drawing Patrick back

13:02 The most American text: home-seeking vs exploring

17:15 Tocqueville's restless Americans

20:03 Restlessness as source of American unhappiness

21:03 Odysseus vs the temptation to be more/less than human

26:14 That temptation in modern American life

31:26 Odysseus's underworld talk with Achilles

39:41 What today's Americans can take from that

41:24 Does Odysseus stay home? The "sequels" to The Odyssey

45:49 Home as the foundation for risk-taking and adventure

51:14 Where to find the book

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